Curse

=HT=Ingram · Feb 18, 2006, 11:01 PM // 23:01

Buying gold online drives the price up in the game economy. Don't believe that? well then you have Zero concept of economies...

There is a reason that Every MMO has tried to ban for these offenses... Arenanet and Sony have been the only ones to take it to court... And sue for shut down of the online services doing it... Now IGX state its paying for TIME... and that too is a bogus excuse...

If the US kept printing money constantly the dollar would be worthless in a matter of months... This has happened before... remember just a few years ago when an apple cost 40,000 yen? I do. Why? Because they kept printing Yen to overcome a crashing economy... Which in the end made the yen nearly worthless...

Now in GW... Lets say right now a glob of ecto cost 7k... great everyone goes out and buys 300K and gets all the ecto they want... Now ecto costs 12k. Other people now have to go buy gold to get this for Fissure armor... they buy 300K... Now ecto is up to 15k each... and so on and so on. its a ongoing repeating cycle of "INFLATION" Which is exactly what gold sellers want cause they are able to sell more and more gold at higher costs...

before long your buying 500K at $50 a pop just to stay on top of the market values.. and LIGITIMATE players have ZERO chance of attaining goods anymore cause the game economy is so out of wack...

Now say whatever you want about your fantasy beliefs that buying in game gold doesnt effect economy... I played the game when Anet was letting people get away with this crap... and I saw what happened to the economy by letting them get away with it. Its taken months to get things back down to reasonable Legitimate levels in costs... and some things are still out of wack. My personal choice would be to eliminate the trade button entirely... Thus making every transaction go though a NPC vendor or merchant. (Yes a variant of auction house)

Since most IGX resellers now use instances to do their duping and transactions (to prevent detection and being banned) I would also make it so you can not drop gold in game at all...

With the loss of a trade button and no gold dropping in instances every transaction is trackable... and the economy is secured, for legitimate players, AND buying gold is no longer needed by in game poor... Because suddenly everything becomes affordable... Shocker...

ingram..

=HT=Ingram · Feb 18, 2006, 11:11 PM // 23:11

Oh and for those now saying I cant buy my uber item. Just about every max stat item is available for FREE from collectors... It may not be as pretty as your rare green drop or unique skinned item... but it does give you the abilities of the item that you want to spend 300K for... so stop saying you can not be competitive. cause you can... you just choose not too...

AxeMe · Feb 18, 2006, 11:14 PM // 23:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by =HT=Ingram

If the US kept printing money constantly the dollar would be worthless in a matter of months... ingram..

If the in-game merchant could only sell gold sold to him by players, then new gold would not be created. It would not be the same as printing dollars with no monetary backing. Instead, the same gold that dropped in the game would be recycled. No new gold, no inflation.

And, if it discouraged the gold farming, it might actually - by eliminating some of the eBay gold sellers - be deflationary. The seller would not be selling new gold. The seller would be selling gold that fell in the game.

Honest.

Athis Strider · Feb 18, 2006, 11:51 PM // 23:51

The players that buy gold on the web have been doing so since the beginning of GW. If indeed there would be this great inbalance, where is it? Seems to me the only point made here is "what if?" what if has not happened. The game has things built in place to balance it out, which include the Mechant Cap and Collectors items. So whats the big deal? If you guys told me that GW's economy has gone to the dogs I could understand the point of this thread.
The economy is fine and people are buying gold on line. Can't afford that gold godly super duper bestest in the world weapon? Get a collectors, they are just as good.
I dont see the point here. I say let people do what they want. I can still play the game regardless.

Athis

=HT=Ingram · Feb 19, 2006, 12:35 AM // 00:35

yep. and more get banned for it Daily... To which I whole heartily say Thank you ArenaNet and NCSoft. The more they ban the more they discourage this activity. The reason the prices are finally stable is because ArenaNet started taking this action. As well as taking measures to secure the market when merging servers. thus no more over night price plunges on high value items... Remember the 200 gold ecto followed the next day by 50k ecto? or the 1k Superior Absorption and Superior Vigor Runes followed next day to be both 100k? I do. it wasn't pretty to witness. Why because just as quickly as they dropped they skyrocketed in price... because so many purchased them and cleaned out the merchant inventories, then they would sell one for 100k. and Bang 10000% profit... and the rest they would resell outside of vendors like they got it on a recent drop so as not to cause the price to fall by reselling back to the rune trader... Arenanet learned that lesson rather well, and took measures to protect market values when merging servers this time. thus preventing another drive for people to be tempted to buy gold to secure items they can not find on drops... But its true... Gold is not a requirement... I rarely have more then 30k, and do just fine with collector armor and weapons, on most characters... Occasionally I'll blow some gold on something, but not often... Normally its for a Superior Vigor Rune... The downside was the nerfing of rune merchant buying... because it was used to generate large amounts of gold. so now its really rare to gain gold from selling runes...

Tortoise · Feb 19, 2006, 12:51 AM // 00:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chase the sky

If everyone started buying gold on line the demand would increase and the price of the gold would go up- eventually the price would stabilize at a higher value and less people would buy it since buying it on-line would not save as much time as actually farming it in game.

You are wrong. Why? Because you're failing to see a critical point: Gold does spawn out of thin air in GW. It gets spawned when you go out and farm. Now the situation you describe will never happen. Why? because there isn't a limited supply of gold. If your one sweatshop can't cope with the demand you do not raise your prices, you open another sweatshop. Because of the huge gap in wealth it will always be more profitable for the regular American - European player to buy money then to go out and farm it and that means that your scenario will simply never happen. Money-buying Prices will not raise, prices will not stabilize at a point where it is as profitable to buy as it is to go out and farm. Because of this buying gold will always be more profitable for the average American (or European) Joe then to go out and farm it. The more the buying of gold get's more common, the more sweatshops that will open. The more sweatshops that are farming, the bigger the influx of money will be. The bigger the influx of money, the higher the inflation... The higher the inflation, well, the more the average player gets shafted.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chase the sky

These MMOLRPGS are all about Skill + Time invested in farming (gear) + Time practicing. You can be the most skilled player in the game but if you don’t spend time practicing or getting good gear then you won’t be successful in it.

You're reply fails to adress the point I'm making. I never stated those that practice more will not be the most skilled ones. I stated that eventually the one with the highest skill will be the victor. That skill is sum of many things, among which your time spent practicing. My point is that 'amount of money spent' should not be a factor in your ingame status. If buying virtual gold online ever becomes common practice then that will be the case and I don't think that is a situation any of us desires...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chase the sky

You haven’t read my above posts: Buying gold on-line does not negatively affect any other players.

Just because I do not agree does not mean I have not read your posts. I'm debating your point of view and I think I have made a good case for the fact that buying gold on-line DOES affect other players negatively. If you still disagree with me, plz feel free to criticise the first bit of this post.

Even in your scenario where prices stabilize after an initial point of rising the average Joe will still end up having to farm longer for an item then he would have to if noone had ever bought any gold online. Even in your scenario the community ends up in a worse situation then if there never was any gold-buying in the first place...

lord_shar · Feb 19, 2006, 01:00 AM // 01:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by generik

Sadly, it probably wouldn't. Unlike other games produced by SOE or WoW where there is a genuine "suckering in" effect, weapons in GW do basically nothing special at all. A g0d1y axe that I can find on eBay is no better than a el cheapo "poor man's" axe.

You mean the addiction factor? That part is determined by raw game content and its quality. EQ was very expansive, and so is WoW. GW is not... it gets a few patches here and there, but no new, extensive map additions and corresponding quests will hit until Factions. So long as ANET keeps putting these expansions out, users will remain GW-players.

Quote:

Originally Posted by generik

I'm pretty sure the new tombs area is part of a social experiment conducted by Anet, and the results of the experiment are clear, people generally don't give two hoots about looks without the stats to match.

I'm not sure about this... high end crystallines still sell in the 1-million+ range, and they don't function any better than common skin counterparts.

Quote:

Originally Posted by generik

Sorry, GW is a good game but its approach is a tad too idealistic, even communist even. However I still believe big money lies pretty much in the traditional MMO approach (not that I approve of it anyway, but I've seen enough people suckered in).

This might be true, but only time will tell.

lord_shar · Feb 19, 2006, 01:04 AM // 01:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by bad person

Prices may rise but that will only make it so people have to purchase more gold, which will cause further inflation. Introducing 'new' gold into the game will only hurt things in the long run. Those who can't purchase gold would eventually not even be able to afford things that are now relatively inexpensive.

Merchant prices cap at 100plat, so there is a ceiling. Furthermore, there are enough gold-sinks present in the form of crafted weapons and 15k armors to remove the extra gold from circulation and keep things balanced.

I for one don't care to sink moeny gold for in-game items. When you're done with GW and walk away, you can't redeem your investment without e-bay, which is still a no-no in the EULA.

Athis Strider · Feb 19, 2006, 02:02 AM // 02:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tortoise

The bigger the influx of money, the higher the inflation... The higher the inflation, well, the more the average player gets shafted.

You're reply fails to adress the point I'm making.

What is your point? We all agree that you dont need to have large amounts of gold to play the game. Period. So whats the big deal?
Fact; You can have great drops and or get collectors items to play GW
Fact; You can get collectors armor
Fact; You can farm yourself and make some gold

Am I missing something? Seems to me we can play GW without Farmers!
That is what the game was intended for in the first place.
Say your right, and this gold buying business drives GW economy into inflation. Whats the result? Players won't buy, and if players won't buy who's going to profit? No one, because we have another alternative. I would agree with you if the alternative was taken away, but other wise I still fail to see the big deal here. (other than the illegal practice of course)

Buying gold online only affects people that feel a need to have the best. Because collectors simply will not do for them.

Athis Strider · Feb 19, 2006, 02:23 AM // 02:23

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/auction/item.php/id=37251/

Here you guys go this says it all.

Tortoise · Feb 19, 2006, 02:46 AM // 02:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Athis Strider

What is your point? We all agree that you dont need to have large amounts of gold to play the game. Period. So whats the big deal?
Fact; You can have great drops and or get collectors items to play GW
Fact; You can get collectors armor
Fact; You can farm yourself and make some gold

I'm quite aware of that and don't worry, I myself have got all the items I need. I myself am using a combination of collectors and greens and got enough money stashed away to go buy a fissure. You CAN have the best without much of a problem and it does not even matter all that much to have the best. Even the allmighty War Machine is playing with sub-optimal gear.

Fact remains however that some items ARE more worth then others. Just because both you and me don't care for crystallines does not mean that most people think that way. To those that cannot buy crystallines because of inflated prices it DOES matter and who are we to stay their wants are unreasonable.

Whether an item is better stat-wise or just 'better' looking does not really make a difference. What matters is that certain people want certain items, what those items are and if those items are the best is irrelevant. Certain people want certain items and have their mind sets upon obtaining them. Perhaps having those items makes them feel warm and fuzzy, it does not really matter. What matters is that no matter the item, no matter their reason for wanting it, no matter how 'leet' it is they will have a harder time obtaining it in an inflated economy. Who are we to say they should not want that item? Who are we to say they should simply accept collectors and be done with it? If people want an certain item they should not have a harder time getting it because some have taken the easy-way-out and e-bayed it.

Athis Strider · Feb 19, 2006, 05:23 AM // 05:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tortoise

Who are we to say they should not want that item? Who are we to say they should simply accept collectors and be done with it? If people want an certain item they should not have a harder time getting it because some have taken the easy-way-out and e-bayed it.

The only issue I have with your point of view is that you are being a bit biased. On the one hand you want people to be able to obtain whatever they want by playing the game and earning it persay. On the other you say that some people have "taken the easy way out". So my question to you is how is that fair for say people that want to play games but don't have the time that is required to obtain these items? What is a "harder time?" If I worked 40 plus a week is it "harder for me to obtain these items? Sure it is. What you are suggesting goes against exactly what you are trying to protect. The right for people to obtain what they want.

I see everyones concern. Its not the occasional person who buys gold online to obtain things they want. It's the people exploiting this meathod. These are the people you are all reffering to as the possible cause for inflation.
I play the game like all of you, I see the prices for the weapons we use. Swords, Bows, Staffs, ect. 50k 60k and more. I feel and have always felt that the prices are too high, but I dont beleive for one second this is the result of people buying gold on-line. I beleive we the players set the prices.

Tortoise · Feb 19, 2006, 02:43 PM // 14:43

I see your point but I'd like to add two more.
1. I deem it only logical that ingame rewards are gained through ingame performance. There is enough discrimination in the world. I don't see any reason to import real-life differences into a game world. Especially when it comes down to this. By allowing people to buy gold you once again create a discrepancy between the rich and the poor. Americans and Europeans will have a higher chance of succes then those in less fortunate countries. This system does not counter for everyone's right equally, it will help us Americans and Euros the most... Shouldn't the hardworking Asian have as much right as the hardworking Euro?

2. The main issue here though is that not only is buying the 'easy' way out, it also hampers other players. Perhaps if buying did not hurt anyone the situation would not be as grave but by buying you do not just affect yourself, you affect an entire economy and by that the entire playerbase of the game. Everyone has the right to be able to obtain what they want but not when it hurts the rights of everyone else. The inflation you cause is basically time you steal from others. The fact that you're able to do that simply because you're more wealthy then another does not make it any more justifiable, especially if you think that your wealth is for a large part caused by scewed economic situations.

Athis Strider · Feb 19, 2006, 08:15 PM // 20:15

I understand your point, and actually I admire the example you are trying to set forth. However real life is unfair and will forever be unfair. People in Asia have to buy GW too, and Im willing to bet that they worked harder to buy the game than we did. Do you think anyone cut them a break? I think not. My point is that while your thoughts and intetions are noble they just wont happen. Let us not forget, that after all is said and done......this is just a game. The unfairness of a game that uses currency (just like real life) will always be just like real life.....unfair. My point remains the bottom line is GW is still a fair game and people are buying gold everyday. When I see that the game has the problems we are speculating on I will agree. Until then A-net is doing a great job at stabilizing a very difficult situation.

Athis

XeNoGeArZ · Feb 19, 2006, 10:28 PM // 22:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Athis Strider

However real life is unfair and will forever be unfair. People in Asia have to buy GW too, and Im willing to bet that they worked harder to buy the game than we did. Do you think anyone cut them a break? I think not. My point is that while your thoughts and intetions are noble they just wont happen. Let us not forget, that after all is said and done......this is just a game. The unfairness of a game that uses currency (just like real life) will always be just like real life.....unfair. My point remains the bottom line is GW is still a fair game and people are buying gold everyday. When I see that the game has the problems we are speculating on I will agree. Until then A-net is doing a great job at stabilizing a very difficult situation.

Athis

There you go - that is the crux of the matter here. Thank the mods for letting this topic live to it's climax.

There is of course a distinct seperation from the (1) rich and (2) poor, and the same for the ones with (A) 24/7-leisure time, and those that have (B) no time due to working a full time job or other important life matters.

Whatever item in GW that we treasure or wish to have, there is a desire to obtain it. If we dont have the time needed to either: farm/work for it, or farm for gold to buy it, then obviously there is the other alternative to use real world money to buy gold to obtain it, which is what 'Chase the Sky' was pointing out. The defense point to this is that in-game performance should reap in-game rewards that 'Tortoise' made, which is a strong point. The situation is that some of us just dont have the time to fully enjoy the game to our desired pleasure, because of the lack of time. A good example of this are fast food joints, like McDs. On many occasions, we dont have the time to prepare our own lunches and meals, and these here are an alternative (hence the term: "fast food"). For saving our time, we give up money. Which leads us right to the previous post by 'Athis Strider'.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lord_shar

Merchant prices cap at 100plat, so there is a ceiling. Furthermore, there are enough gold-sinks present in the form of crafted weapons and 15k armors to remove the extra gold from circulation and keep things balanced.
I for one don't care to sink moeny gold for in-game items. When you're done with GW and walk away, you can't redeem your investment without e-bay, which is still a no-no in the EULA.

The main goal was to obtain an item in GW. If you look at it from your perspective, there seems to be no return. But you are not seeing it from the flip side, and that is the time needed to get that item. Another may see it like giving up real world money to conserve time of their lives invested in this game, which is more important to them. Only you can determine what you value more.

I agree though about the 100p "ceiling", and the various "gold-sinks". I have to agree with the last point 'Athis' made:

Quote:

My point remains the bottom line is GW is still a fair game and people are buying gold everyday. When I see that the game has the problems we are speculating on I will agree. Until then A-net is doing a great job at stabilizing a very difficult situation.

thunderpower · Feb 19, 2006, 10:53 PM // 22:53

Actually, i was witness of a so called inflation. Some month ago ecto price skyrocketed. the merchant paid 14k (something like that), selling price was around 17k (i`m not ure of the exact prices). What this so called ecto price inflation made me do was sell all my ecto (like 40 or so) to the NPC. I guess many of you remember and some did the same thing. This resulted in an immediate drop of ecto prices (immediate meaning like 1-2 days, not 1-2 seconds xD ).

But I think if farmers would unite and buy ectos for all their gold, they could make prices skyrocket again.

thunderpower · Feb 19, 2006, 11:14 PM // 23:14

Quote:

Paying real money for items that can disappear as soon as aNet hangs up it's servers is flat out stupid. You're buying NOTHING! They don't exist!

Ha ha. You don't get the point do you? It's all about your/our personal satisfaction.

Real life examples:
People like to pay for a fancy haircut althou they now they know that their hair will actually grow and ruin the effect (unless you plan to burn your hair out an wear a wig

).

Short term example. We like snacks even if we're not hungry... People spend their money on caviar. All of them know that it will become sh..t in some hours/minutes but we still buy and eat caviar sometimes if we can afford it. Maybe only once just to satisfy our need to taste it.

AxeMe · Feb 20, 2006, 03:18 AM // 03:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by thunderpower

Ha ha. You don't get the point do you? It's all about your/our personal satisfaction.

Real life examples:
People like to pay for a fancy haircut althou they now they know that their hair will actually grow and ruin the effect (unless you plan to burn your hair out an wear a wig

).

Short term example. We like snacks even if we're not hungry... People spend their money on caviar. All of them know that it will become sh..t in some hours/minutes but we still buy and eat caviar sometimes if we can afford it. Maybe only once just to satisfy our need to taste it.

Good point and exactly right -- truth is that the game itself disappears when you turn off the computer. So if the OP's criteria is that it's silly to spend money on something that is virtual, he shouldn't have bought the game in the first place.

CuST0M · Mar 05, 2006, 12:43 AM // 00:43

People are free to spend their money on what they choose. This topic is BS, It has always been possible for MMORPGers to purchace the currency for the game they played. Its not recommended to purchase the gold from Ebay but, how does this money become available..farmers. What can you do really besides complain. Everyone will play the game as they like.

You want to flame about people buying thier gold insted of "EARNING" it like you. Well sadly enough lifes not fair. You'll learn this someday. If someone doesn't have the time to aquire such vast amounts of gold to say..buy FoW armors, then obviously they work a 9-5 .. maybe have a family also, and dont have the time to waste on farming. If it wasn't possible to players to purchase the gold, there would be very few players(farmers wouldn't exist due to boredom, and no profit. Ebay purchasers would not be around because everyone would have all the same items= no thrill of having better items then someone else, nothing would be rare or valuable. Ultimatly Guild Wars would fail as a game, their wouldnt be enough players for ANet to bother releasing a second chapter, they would have folded.

Due to major deflation, the Rare GOLD item would be crap. I like many others like the see.. "____ has droped a Rare Fellblade". Fact is that its a rare item wanted by players, and the farmers have the money and items.

Now what I agree with is that Boters should be baned. More power to actual farmers who sell gold on ebay, some of them could be someone you know, too young to have a job, try`n to make some money to go to the movies with a friend...who knows.

Whatever you want to think/believe you gotta realize the sale and purchase of virtue currancy will always be an issue. If it wasnt the game wouldnt have items that are "gold sinks" cause everything would be worthless. The purchasers of Ebay gold are evenning out the farmers. Picture farmers with an endless amount of money on thier hands...they could destroy the game.(thus no more Guild Wars, an inovative MMORPG) So this talk of people being banned for buy`n Gold on Ebay, I dont believe it, cause you'd see major inflation(farmers would buy all muchant stock on rare items with all theyre gold and merchants would go WAYYYYY up) thus no average players, which i believe are the people against this, would be able to have anything worth while, anything "cool" anything rare. It would take forever..

Example:

Say you spend.. 60 bucks for 1,000P on ebay then you purchase that perfect weapon, runes, guild/hall/cape,(Youd have everything the best you would want) not too far along after you get a perfect drop of the same type of item/rune, or even a vailuable green.. what happens, the person would most likely turn around and sell it IG, for the going price. Prices DROP..You get enough of that going on, the "legitimate" player you claim can also afford the item with a bit of saving.

Bottom Line: Ebay buyers=out farmers. Boters should be banned. EBay sale of virtual currancy will never cease. People would not play the game if they could not gain something in their own way from it.

*Thx for taking the time to read this, maybe even quote it. Just my thoughts, I will not reply to any quotes and or questions directed my way.

VitisVinifera · Mar 05, 2006, 02:59 AM // 02:59

warning: I'm totally joking here!

A few pages back someone said 100k was going for $11 on Ebay. Wouldn't it be fun if, through a few plug-ins, pay 400 plats from your account and get Factions for free? Man I'd do that!

makes you think.....if things were really all plugged in, between real money, pay pal, and in-game plats.....you could take care of a few things.......